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twharrell

Still trying to wrap my head around night environment concepts

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twharrell    16
twharrell

Now, obviously night environment (and black marble) is just that - road lights, road glow, etc, everything to bring life to the night environment. I read somewhere (I am sure it was here) that FSX (and by extension P3D) was designed more with daytime flying in mind. Having read many different threads here, I am learning that the night environment is a whole new animal that has to be configured a little differently. What I am having difficulty wrapping my head around is how does Night Environment and the upcoming Black Marble interact with default landclass/vector, UTX landclass/texture, and FTX global/OpenLC/Vector to bring you the nighttime visuals we see in sim? Does it interact with the vector data to place lights, etc in the sim, or is Night Environment/Black Marble another scenery "layer" that sits on top of existing daytime scenery data? In other words, will Night Environment and Black marble look the same in sim whether you are using default vector data vs FTX Vector or UTX? Or does the appearance depend on the default or 3rd party vector data being used or does Night Environment and Black marble have its owne vector data? Is there a way to portray how it works in a diagram or picture? I hope my questions make sense as I try to make sense of everything!

 

Regards,

Todd

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+Chris Bell    421
Chris Bell

its simple Todd...

we don't interact with any of the above!

we only interact with native sim data!

 

for most parts NE overwrites any land class layer and is configured as a scenery layer,

Black Marble is replacing native Sim vector data Globally... as in worldwide

when one is placed over the same will accrue, NE will overwrite anything below it,

on the edges where NE ends Sim will seamlessly connect to Black Marble schema (which is Sim native),

 

Black Marble doesn't bring any new textures to Sim but it does bring in a whole new layout! that including day time!

at night that grid is filled with lights, but at day time that grid is properly laid out,

so now Sim Autogen engine renders sim's random generated scenery more accurately!

since the grid its operating in is native, it will generate the scenery supposedly "randomly";

yet still more accurate since the roads dictate the auto generated object laid in between!

 

this worldwide grid we bring in with Black Marble is fully functional and working during day time as well!!!

Sim uses its native textures for that or any other third party textures or objects one is using,

it will work as if you are installing over default scenery now,

 

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twharrell    16
twharrell
3 hours ago, Chris Bell said:

its simple Todd...

we don't interact with any of the above!

we only interact with native sim data!

 

for most parts NE overwrites any land class layer and is configured as a scenery layer,

Black Marble is replacing native Sim vector data Globally... as in worldwide

when one is placed over the same will accrue, NE will overwrite anything below it,

on the edges where NE ends Sim will seamlessly connect to Black Marble schema (which is Sim native),

 

Black Marble doesn't bring any new textures to Sim but it does bring in a whole new layout! that including day time!

at night that grid is filled with lights, but at day time that grid is properly laid out,

so now Sim Autogen engine renders sim's random generated scenery more accurately!

since the grid its operating in is native, it will generate the scenery supposedly "randomly";

yet still more accurate since the roads dictate the auto generated object laid in between!

 

this worldwide grid we bring in with Black Marble is fully functional and working during day time as well!!!

Sim uses its native textures for that or any other third party textures or objects one is using,

it will work as if you are installing over default scenery now,

 

 

OK, so this is how I understand how scenery is normally layered in P3D (and FSX), from lowest layer to highest layer:

 

1) Mesh

2) Land class

3) Vector data

4) Airports, etc

 

If you are saying Black Marble is global vector data and Night Environment is land class data, it sounds like I won't need FTX Vector, UTX, or OpenLC, as I get the same data with BM and NE, with the added benefit of your night lighting tech. The only thing missing would be custom road textures, coastline textures, etc that I get with those other packages. Correct?

 

If I am OK having default road textures, etc, it sounds like if I wanted, I could set up my sim this way:

 

1) Mesh (default or 3rd party)

2) FTX Global (for textures) + Night Environment (Landclass/night lighting tech)

3) Black Marble (Vector data + night lighting tech)

1) Airports, etc

 

I would no longer "need" FTX Vector, Open LC or UTX, correct? Would there be any benefit in keeping any of those other addons in my sim?

If Black Marble and NE both include the same night lighting technology, why would I want NE if i already have FTX OpenLC? 

 

Thanks for being patient with me as I try to figure this out.

 

Todd

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+Chris Bell    421
Chris Bell
8 hours ago, twharrell said:

If you are saying Black Marble is global vector data and Night Environment is land class data, it sounds like I won't need FTX Vector, UTX, or OpenLC, as I get the same data with BM and NE, with the added benefit of your night lighting tech. The only thing missing would be custom road textures, coastline textures, etc that I get with those other packages. Correct?

 

you mixed up Night Environment and Black Marble bit,

Night Environment is not landclass based scenery, it will overwrite any landclass based scenery,

 

Black Marble is a landclass based scenery and will be overwritten by Night Environment if its active over the same area,

 

and its much more then any of the above mentioned provide you with through all their packages combined!

(when it comes to vector data nd night lighting systems!)

 

Black Marble is also a global worldwide vector data!

this means everywhere you are in the world your road system is accurate, and looks like this

 

2Q==

 

Black Marble file structure is native to Sim as you can see below,

this is the same folder structure we all have inside Sim\Scenery folder,

this is where Sim's native vector data is located; subdivided into Sim logical smaller area grid,

 

1.jpg

 

2.jpg

 

here is the whole road network in TMFViewer Black Marble Native side by side vs P3D Native

(note we don't render any roads that do not have some sort of pavement while Native P3D does include dirt paths and such)

 

3-(BM).jpg

 

4-(P3D).jpg

 

i know its hard to tell from that far away what exactly is the difference, here is a close up of the same area;

lets see if you can guess which one is Black Marble and which is P3D :)

 

5-(BM).jpg

 

6-(P3D).jpg

 

 

8 hours ago, twharrell said:

 

I would no longer "need" FTX Vector, Open LC or UTX, correct?

 

not for the vector data as ours is far more comprehensive!

 

8 hours ago, twharrell said:

Would there be any benefit in keeping any of those other addons in my sim?

 

you still might want to consider these for their textures and objects,

 

8 hours ago, twharrell said:

If Black Marble and NE both include the same night lighting technology, why would I want NE if i already have FTX OpenLC?

 

Black Marble provides you with WORLDWIDE!

and thats vector data with night lighting that shines anywhere you are in the world!

 

 

Night Environment brings in attributes that landclass based scenery cannot bring in the mix, like its native 60Nm lighting radius, or our custom hand made night map layer,

you can read more about that here

and here

 

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twharrell    16
twharrell

Thanks for those links, Chris. I think I am starting to get it now! So, let's find out..... :ph34r:

 

1) Black Marble is comprehensive worldwide vector data (roads, etc) that includes your world class night lighting tech.

** I assume BM also includes vector data for streams, rivers, coastlines, etc?

** BM vector data is more comprehensive than FTX Vector and UTX

** BM does not include custom vector textures for roads, etc. 

Now when you say BM is landclass-based, that confuses me somewhat because I consider land class and vector to be different. Can you clarify?

 

2) Night Environment is a more detailed night lighting map based on a night photoreal layer to bring more detail/realism to the night environment. It will override BM but will blend more seamlessly with surrounding BM because of BM's comprehensive vector layout. NE is only visible at night, i.e. The photoreal will not be noticeable during the day.

 

How am I doing so far? :D

 

So, if i wanted to streamline my scenery addons, I could simply do this:

1) Mesh (3rd party or default)

2) Land class (FTX Global/Open LC or GEX)

3) Vector (Black Marble + NE)

    Optional: FTX Vector or UTX - only if I want custom vector textures or other objects not provided by BM

4) 3rd party airport addons

 

Did I nail it?

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+Chris Bell    421
Chris Bell
26 minutes ago, twharrell said:

1) Black Marble is comprehensive worldwide vector data (roads, etc) that includes your world class night lighting tech.

 

that is correct!

 

27 minutes ago, twharrell said:

** I assume BM also includes vector data for streams, rivers, coastlines, etc?

 

not yet, it may or may not be included in another umbrella product line thats not yet been announced 9_9

 

29 minutes ago, twharrell said:

** BM vector data is more comprehensive than FTX Vector and UTX

 

you can say that again and then some, yes that is true also :D

 

30 minutes ago, twharrell said:

** BM does not include custom vector textures for roads, etc. 

 

Black Marble uses native textures, that is also correct!

 

32 minutes ago, twharrell said:

Now when you say BM is landclass-based, that confuses me somewhat because I consider land class and vector to be different. Can you clarify?

 

many confuses the terms, its simple they are not the same but work together,

if i compare it to real life its gasoline to a car where the car is Landclass and Vector is fuel!

or a painters canvas to paint brush; where the canvas is your Landclass system again and your brush is your vector data,

Landclass is the mainframe that runs the actual vector data files, you can run this data via other "mainframe" elements!

this is why it is important to to differentiate between Landclass and library objects system,

they each operate different and each have their pro and cons,

they work side by side in real time, they each can utilize vector data when converted to the right format,

vector data is just data that describes the terrain, it can describe roads, lakes, bridges, and many other elements,

the vector data is converted to format one of the above system can read from,

when they do; they render this data in Sim for you more accurately,

in fact when done right it is 1:1 fidelity to real world!

 

41 minutes ago, twharrell said:

2) Night Environment is a more detailed night lighting map based on a night photoreal layer to bring more detail/realism to the night environment. It will override BM but will blend more seamlessly with surrounding BM because of BM's comprehensive vector layout. NE is only visible at night, i.e. The photoreal will not be noticeable during the day.

 

there are allot of elements to Night Environment to this day we were never duplicated! only imitated! :$

Night Environment originated from the need to have night lighting over Photoreal sets that were lacking night,

the combination of elements in Night Environment is proprietary in house technology that is ours from the start,

we invented this system and reinvented night fling in Sim!

 

Black Marble and Night Environment use the same exact vector data!

and they blend seamlessly because of that,

 

Night Environment brings in unique values and attributes that cannot be replicated atm through any other "framework"

no other system can project at 60Nm radius! our night texture that matches our lights above are a special hand crafted textures that takes allot of time to produce,

but when we do they are unbeatable in their visual value during night flight,

 

50 minutes ago, twharrell said:

Did I nail it?

 

its hard for me to say at this point, there are many addon's you are not still aware of!

that list could very well change on you before you know it ;) 

 

 

 

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